The Boost Gauge Is Dead: Manifold Air Density Tells the Truth

Transcript

00:02 today I want to talk to you about
00:04 something that I've been
00:05 doing since
00:08 1960
00:10 uh so
00:12 uh today I'm going to break the news on
00:15 bad boost air density is what I'm
00:17 talking about uh I've been boosting
00:21 engines since 1960 the first one being a
00:24 blown Buick that went in a boat a nail
00:28 head Buick
00:32 and people have been
00:34 using since the beginning of time a
00:36 thing called a boost
00:38 gauge um but the boost gauge is
00:42 seriously flawed and people
00:46 who really know a lot about boosted
00:49 engines comp compare uh their prowess or
00:53 their engines
00:55 potential uh by so citing boost gauge
00:58 numbers well I'm here to kill the boost
01:00 gauge all induction is
01:03 forced what do I mean by
01:06 that well here we are at the bottom of
01:08 the intake
01:10 stroke at 9,000
01:12 RPM how long do you think it took that
01:15 piston to get from the top to the bottom
01:16 of the boore in thousands of a second
01:19 anybody got a even
01:21 a rough guess on
01:25 that took about five
01:28 milliseconds 5 thousand of a second that
01:32 includes all the Val intake valve event
01:34 in other words not just 180 degrees just
01:37 of a half Rev on the intake stroke but
01:41 the valve opening point which was before
01:45 the stroke began and the valve closing
01:46 point which is after the stroke
01:49 ends so you've got this
01:52 extremely fast movement of the Piston
01:54 forming almost a perfect vacuum in the
01:58 cylinder
02:00 so if you look at
02:02 this down at the bottom there I've got
02:04 absolute zero pressure and right above
02:07 that I've got the pressure in cylinder
02:09 during the intake
02:11 stroke and then I've got three map
02:14 values one is closed throttle you're
02:18 idling that'd be the map at idle and
02:21 even there you've got enough pressure in
02:22 the intake manifold after the throttle
02:25 to force idle air mass into the cylinder
02:29 and I mean
02:31 that's probably I like I talk positive
02:33 numbers so let's talk in pounds since
02:35 you guys use pound pounds of boost uh I
02:39 started out using inches of mercury but
02:41 I'm going to hold it all to pounds today
02:43 uh so you've got about at at idle uh
02:47 with a mild cam you probably got about
02:49 five pounds of pressure in the intake
02:51 manifold on a standard day ambient
02:55 pressure uh sea level would be about
02:57 14.7 and boosted engines can be almost
03:02 anywhere uh I want to show you this
03:04 first because the true Arbiter the true
03:08 thing you should be talking about is not
03:10 boost it's map if you want to talk about
03:13 pressure with a supercharged engine or a
03:15 naturally aspirated engine uh in the
03:18 intake manifold uh that's what drives
03:21 the charge into the cylinder that
03:22 pressure in the intake
03:24 manifold uh then you ought to look at it
03:27 like this so
03:31 we're still reading map at
03:32 idle it's pretty damn close to
03:37 uh pushing you all the way down to
03:40 absolute zero pressure everybody with me
03:42 on this any am I losing anybody uh
03:46 ambient pressure the force is greater
03:49 you make more power and a boosted Engine
03:52 Force is even greater you notice there
03:54 at the upper right under the boosted
03:57 engine pressure level it says boost
04:00 gauge equals incomplete
04:03 information do you see why the boost
04:06 gauge never includes the ambient
04:09 pressure but that's part of the charging
04:12 pressure of the
04:14 cylinder so stop talking boost and start
04:17 talking
04:19 map what's being forced is the air
04:22 density in other words the map pressure
04:26 is forcing the air density in the intake
04:28 manifold
04:30 around the valve and into the
04:33 cylinder and air density is not just a
04:36 function of pressure it's a function of
04:38 temperature pressure and humidity all
04:41 three play into calculating air
04:45 density to give you an
04:48 idea oh way back in the day the guys
04:50 around Detroit decided our standard
04:53 gross horsepower test is going to be U
04:57 normalized to or corrected to 60° F 21
05:02 9.92 in of mercury or
05:04 14.7 pounds absolute
05:07 pressure and that gives you a density
05:10 with 0%
05:13 humidity of 0076 35 pounds per cubic
05:17 foot that's kind of hard number to to
05:20 deal with so I state it this
05:23 way the ambient air density under those
05:26 conditions which I call add ambient air
05:29 density
05:30 add is
05:32 76.4 pounds per th000 cubic
05:35 feet well engines are CFM devices are
05:38 they
05:40 not
05:42 so
05:43 anytime the conditions occur and they
05:46 don't always have to be the 60 and the
05:49 14.7 and the 0% humidity but
05:52 anytime those conditions occur I
05:56 consider that to be on a j607 standard
05:59 day there are other standards by the way
06:02 this is one that even NASCAR is still
06:04 using uh you've got
06:07 76.4 pounds of air per thousand cubic
06:10 feet you mix pounds of air with pounds
06:13 of fuel you don't mix CFM you don't mix
06:16 a Boost number it's pounds of air with
06:18 pounds of fuel that gives you the air
06:20 fuel ratio and the air fuel ratio is
06:22 pretty sacred you don't want to get too
06:24 far
06:25 off the air fuel ratio value here's some
06:29 ways that you could get that 76.4 PBS
06:33 the first one being to specification the
06:36 other one
06:37 altitude temperature is now at
06:40 30° Fahrenheit the pressure is lower but
06:44 we still have 76.4 pounds per thousand
06:48 we still have a 100% day now when I say
06:51 100%
06:53 day Dino correction factors correct you
06:56 back to that value so everybody in the
06:59 world can compare what their engine
07:01 would have done had it been under those
07:03 conditions on that standard
07:06 day so it doesn't have to be exactly 60
07:10 and 14.7 and 0% humidity in the third
07:14 column over I've got the humidity at
07:16 100% temperatures down a little and
07:19 pressure standard we're still at
07:22 76.4 the engine cares about the air mass
07:26 it really doesn't care about those other
07:28 numbers it care it cares about the air
07:29 mass because without the air mass you
07:32 don't burn the fuel mass and you don't
07:34 make the power
07:38 number all the examples I'm going to
07:40 give you today I've kind of standardized
07:43 the engines run at a 12 to1 air fuel
07:45 ratio and the the brake spec is
07:50 500 so doing the math the break specific
07:54 air consumption is 6 lb per horsepower
07:57 hour 100 horsepower with therefore
08:00 require 600 lb of air per
08:03 hour or
08:06 at 100 horsepower for a minute 10 pounds
08:09 of air per minute so I need 10 pounds of
08:12 air per minute to make 100 horsepower
08:15 with gasoline at a 12 to one with a 500
08:18 brake
08:23 spec so if 1,000 cubic feet of air
08:26 equals 76.4 lbs then 1 31 cubic feet per
08:31 minute equals 10 PBS per minute equals
08:35 100
08:36 horsepower everybody with
08:38 me
08:40 cool let me try it together engines pump
08:44 CFM and I'm I'm not talking
08:47 about CFM in this room I'm not talking
08:49 about ambient CFM I'm talking about
08:52 engine CFM CFM engine is different than
08:56 CFM
08:58 inducted that's a powerful thing to to
09:02 to realize because guys always talk
09:04 about the size of the carburetor and how
09:05 many CFM and etc etc there's two
09:08 different values
09:10 here the density of the CFM that you're
09:15 inducting pardon me that the engine
09:20 processes is directly related to the
09:22 horsepower
09:26 output engines pump their own
09:28 displacement every two revs that's
09:30 because you only have one induction per
09:35 two
09:36 revs at any fixed RPM the engine CFM
09:40 pumped is
09:43 constant the throttle doesn't control
09:46 the engine CFM the throttle controls the
09:49 manifold air
09:51 density intake manifold air density
09:55 that's what the engine
09:56 inducts and that's what highly important
10:00 here
10:01 mad manifold air
10:05 density throttles cold air scoops
10:09 superchargers turbochargers and
10:11 intercoolers are all density
10:15 machines they either increase or
10:19 decrease the manifold air
10:22 density of the engine being
10:25 pumped the CFM engine CFM being
10:34 pumped if you couldn't reduce the
10:36 manifold air density with something like
10:38 a throttle the engine would never idle
10:41 the mass flow would be too high now
10:43 diesels are a different matter they
10:45 throttle on fuel today I'm talking about
10:47 gasoline if you think I'm just a diesel
10:49 guy you're sadly mistaken I'm a turbo
10:52 guy turbo don't
10:54 care it can go
10:57 anywhere so why is manifold air density
11:00 so
11:02 important an an engine's air fuel ratio
11:04 is measured in mass units it takes
11:06 pounds of air not pounds of boost to
11:10 burn pounds of
11:12 fuel I might might be repeating myself
11:14 I'm just trying
11:17 to really burn it in so mad times a CFM
11:22 pumped determines your engine's power
11:27 output and mad can be displayed
11:30 as mass per unit volume in other words
11:32 pounds per thousand cubic feet I like or
11:35 percent of standard day I really prefer
11:38 percent you'll see why in a in a few
11:41 minutes
11:43 here mad readings apply to any internal
11:46 combustion engine Spar or compression
11:48 ignition blown or
11:50 [Music]
11:51 unblown any
11:54 fuel mad Rees can can be compared at any
11:57 altitude anywhere on the on the planet
11:59 now you have a common
12:01 language which boost is not a common
12:04 language and they can it cannot be
12:06 compared anywhere on the
12:08 planet because it doesn't account for
12:10 the changes in ambient
12:15 pressure so here's some base conditions
12:18 for the rest of the talk the volumetric
12:20 efficiency is
12:22 100% thermal losses are constant
12:25 frictional losses are constant viscous
12:27 losses are constant and all power
12:30 numbers are
12:32 observed now guys talk about corrected
12:35 horsepower but if you're in
12:38 Denver versus San Diego California
12:42 you're down on
12:43 power but that's the power you've got if
12:46 you're going racing that's all God's
12:48 given you if you're naturally aspirated
12:50 and it kind of compromises you a bit
12:52 even if you're
12:55 blown so I want to take you back to how
12:59 this all started to occur to me 1960 El
13:02 Mirage Dry
13:03 Lake I was real high-tech with my 65
13:06 bucks stud Baker and uh my dickie fire
13:11 suit dumped in the borate solution in
13:13 the 55 gallon drum I even fireproof my
13:16 tenes with that it's very
13:21 scratchy and these were my
13:23 instruments a moon density
13:26 gauge guys still use these to I think
13:29 inter comp makes makes a current version
13:31 of this
13:34 uh tuning your naturally aspirated
13:36 engine the Ambi ambient a density if you
13:40 kept a book uh you jetted your Holly or
13:42 you pilled your hillborne uh the engine
13:46 that I had
13:48 run at the champion Dyno in Long Beach
13:52 uh where I had conditions very much like
13:54 60° F and
13:56 147 uh I had a 580 horse hillborne
14:01 injected small block in that
14:03 studer car looks like hell but the
14:05 engine was
14:06 beautiful uh running in Long Beach
14:10 14.7
14:12 60° altitude virtually zero uh 100%
14:17 manif manifold air
14:19 density 580
14:21 horsepower P standard day no power
14:25 loss then I went up to El Mirage
14:29 I didn't have this instrument by the way
14:31 I had the old ones I just showed you and
14:33 I was doing the math on a piece of paper
14:36 I wish I had this back then but you see
14:39 what's happened we're still 60
14:42 de uh in this I'm going to keep the
14:44 temperature constant so you can just
14:47 look at the rest of this I'll have some
14:50 temperature examples later but basically
14:52 you're at 2800 a a little over 2,800 ft
14:57 altitude and I'm down on power
14:59 I'm at
15:00 90% uh manifold air
15:04 density which knocks about 10% of your
15:07 power
15:08 off manifold air density and power are
15:12 directly
15:16 related so I'm at El Mirage I've been on
15:19 the dyno down in Long Beach 12 to one
15:23 was my favorite PL color on the plug and
15:26 it it it wasn't there it was a lot
15:28 darker
15:29 so I leaned out the
15:31 hillborn and it cost me 56
15:36 horsepower then I went to
15:39 Bonville this is really
15:41 disheartening because I wanted to get in
15:43 the two
15:44 Club
15:46 badly and I thought at 580 horsepower
15:50 the stud Victor would go fast enough to
15:51 get me in the two
15:53 Club
15:55 but here I am uh I'm down to 86 % on the
15:59 density I got five miles of beautiful
16:02 white four feet deep at the time and uh
16:06 but my power is down
16:07 14% I had no Ram-Air uh I was basically
16:12 inhaling uh underhood air which is
16:15 another no no if you care about
16:17 density you don't run an exposed air
16:20 filter element under the hood ever ever
16:24 I've seen some beautiful stuff at the
16:26 SEMA show two years ago where a guy had
16:27 a blower
16:29 had like a open Element air filter that
16:33 wrapped around right over the
16:37 headers well I'm if you're if you're in
16:40 it for air density and that's what you
16:41 should be in it for you don't induct hot
16:44 air and then make it hotter in the
16:46 blower and then intercool it you're just
16:49 giving away 30 40 horsepower by doing
16:53 such stupid thing so here we are we're
16:56 at 4200 ft and I decided
17:00 okay I'm going to put an air scoop on
17:03 the stud
17:04 Baker have a ear shy paint it for
17:09 $29.95 and uh I filed an aluminum box
17:13 that came down and the injector Stacks
17:15 went into the box and it sealed around
17:17 the uh the stack so I had a positive
17:21 pressure
17:22 now and I picked up 24
17:25 horsepower what happened was I picked up
17:29 6 t0 of a pound of pressure over
17:33 ambient at 190 miles an hour now I'm
17:37 back to
17:38 522 so which oh by the way is where I
17:42 was at at the Lakes at a lower altitude
17:45 so this ramir
17:48 thing as long as it's cold Ram a this
17:50 Ram a Thing Really
17:53 Works but nonetheless uh there was no
17:57 two club for me uh I went
18:00 189 and
18:02 uh I was really really really looking
18:05 for how the hell do I improve the
18:08 manifold air density in this
18:13 Chevy pitted next to me AB
18:17 bonnaville oh you're no
18:20 [Laughter]
18:23 gisler Bruce gisler and I have run
18:26 together on and off for 50 one years and
18:31 uh he's absolutely crazy and the coolest
18:34 guy on
18:36 Earth anyhow his T-shirt and nobody tell
18:39 gisler
18:40 this but his T-shirt set up my entire
18:44 career I would rather be blown than
18:48 injected then I thought about the
18:50 answers at Pikes Peak and you start to
18:53 look at where that
18:55 goes here's the same engine at the the
18:59 start at 9,390
19:01 FT your manifold or density is 71% of
19:06 standard day and the power is now down
19:08 to 413 but let's take it to the top at
19:13 14110 density is down to
19:16 60% power is down to 348
19:20 horsepower anybody who runs naturally
19:23 aspirated at Pikes
19:26 Peak this should be really depressing I
19:28 would think uh especially if you down
19:32 your engine in Long Beach
19:39 California so the power losses reflect
19:42 the drop and manifold air density now I
19:45 wanted to add this little thing because
19:46 the power losses will be greater because
19:48 the parasitics don't drop the frictional
19:50 viscous
19:51 Etc you got a
19:54 bigger heat sink relative to the the
19:57 BTUs your producing every the power
20:00 losses will actually be greater than
20:03 what I showed you similarly if you
20:05 increase power um the power losses will
20:09 be greater than what I show you because
20:11 the frictional inviscus really doesn't
20:13 increase but the power does so parasitic
20:16 versus is what I'm talking
20:20 about so unblown engines how can I use a
20:24 mad reading what do I do with it well
20:27 you you saw the take air location and
20:30 intake air ducting thing I did with the
20:31 stud Baker uh air filter
20:36 restriction you can get you can
20:39 perfectly size a carburetor with this
20:41 setup or the throttle
20:44 itself uh you look at a guy running a
20:47 cup car uh with a plate uh plates are
20:51 worth about 400
20:53 horsepower but the throttles remain the
20:55 same size above the plate anybody ever
20:59 driven a plate car let me tell you about
21:03 the last third of the PO throttle is
21:06 dead because the plates throttling now
21:10 your your butterfly area has exceeded
21:14 the Restriction of the plate so those
21:18 guys have to plan everything in advance
21:20 and build momentum and what have you
21:22 it's like racing formula V Road Race I
21:25 mean everybody's got the same power
21:27 virtually
21:29 I'd go nuts driving a plate
21:33 car so throttle size versus engine
21:35 requirement a lot of guys run big mother
21:38 throttles you tip in you get too much
21:41 air real quick it's not real
21:44 streetable but it's really badass to
21:46 have a 4-inch throttle uh so guys do
21:50 that most of the throttling takes place
21:53 in about the first 30 degrees of
21:54 movement of the throttle blade once you
21:57 get enough throttle area now you're
21:59 throttling on the ports or the cylinder
22:02 heads so one last thing I put here under
22:05 unblown engines is charge air cooling
22:09 uh I call it poor man's forced
22:13 induction and I'll give you a couple of
22:15 examples I've done a number of
22:17 these we ran a car called The Sundowner
22:20 uh in 1979 at Bonville I was going to
22:23 tur turbo but it ran out of time so I
22:26 left the intercooler in place put a set
22:29 of headers on it change the compression
22:31 ratio in the cam and build a box around
22:33 the carburetor and I used liquid CO2 to
22:38 chill the heat
22:39 exchangers so the car ran a 211 on a
22:42 single four barrel uh at 4,200 ft of
22:46 altitude unblown not bad I mean at the
22:50 time the fastest single four barrel
22:52 Corvette was 186 miles an hour and that
22:55 was at sea level what did I do with that
22:58 I increase the manifold air density by
23:00 cooling the
23:02 air uh this is the underhood of a
23:04 project I did with John Rock at GMC
23:07 called the Cyclone convinced him to set
23:10 a record at Bonville with a truck here
23:12 we used ice water to kill to cool two
23:15 heat exchangers one on either side of
23:17 the radiator Ram rare came through the
23:20 grill into the uh ducting and through
23:24 two heat exchangers chilled with ice
23:26 water so on 110 de every day our intake
23:29 air temperature was
23:31 51° that's a pretty significant almost a
23:33 6% increase in power uh of course little
23:37 Ram a value went along with
23:40 that now let's get into turbocharging a
23:43 little bit here
23:46 uh turbocharging is something that I've
23:49 been doing now for well since
23:54 1967 is that 50
23:56 years uh this is my first Speed Shop
24:00 retail shop in San Gabriel in
24:03 1967 uh and the first turbo engine I did
24:10 uh was is in this hydroplane called the
24:13 nailer and it's intercooled but with a
24:15 very crude charge air cooler water
24:19 jacketed or water cooled charge air
24:21 cooler uh it made enough power to push
24:26 the rudder out of the water in other
24:27 words how hydros run on the prop the
24:29 tail gets up it pushed the tail so high
24:33 we went
24:34 sideways which put next thing I just
24:37 told the rocky the guy who owned the
24:39 boat put it on the trailer I'm going
24:42 home you got to get a longer
24:46 Rudder I was injected infected I should
24:49 say by the cor spider and Hugh mcis who
24:52 was a chief engineer of TRW
24:54 turbocharging at the time became a
24:55 friend of mine uh and why turbos well
25:01 mad decision is easy do I do
25:06 this or
25:09 this
25:11 so I kind of chose the turbocharging by
25:14 the way
25:15 the
25:17 mammano was Al
25:20 hoberts and we uh took it from 580
25:24 horsepower uh with a big engine down to
25:26 5 L engine at
25:28 930 kind of overwhelmed every everything
25:32 about that Monza in fact we went so fast
25:35 that the chin spoiler folded under and
25:38 we ran over
25:40 it a lot of
25:44 downforce so let me run through some
25:47 various types of supercharging and show
25:50 you how this measurement of a Mad
25:52 becomes very very very
25:54 crucial here's a Roots blower uh 87 1
25:59 671 1271 you name it they're about 45%
26:04 efficient that means they heat the air
26:06 quite a bit here here the 60° Air at 20
26:10 pounds of
26:12 boost mat manifold air temperature is
26:15 381 degrees
26:16 fah your density is up
26:19 46% a 146 at 20 pounds of
26:23 boost now we go to a screw type
26:25 supercharger 65% efficient
26:30 oh by the way the horsepower was 846 at
26:33 20 PBS of
26:34 boost now we're at 959 horsepower we're
26:38 still at 20 pounds of boost but we're
26:41 running at 282 degrees in the manifold
26:45 and our density is a
26:48 165 now we go to a
26:51 centrifugal which I call a belt driven
26:53 turbocharger or a turbo which has runoff
26:57 exhaust pressure
27:00 and our efficiency is up to 76% our
27:03 horsepower is now
27:05 a,3 we're still at 20 pounds of boost on
27:08 this engine our manifold air temperatur
27:10 is
27:11 250 you're starting to follow we're just
27:15 evaluating all these different blowers
27:17 you can use this to evaluate one blower
27:21 and it's overdrive let's say we had a
27:24 case where a guy changed the the pulley
27:27 on a blown late model Camaro to pulley
27:30 up and get some more boost and he
27:31 actually went
27:32 slower that's because his Boost number
27:35 went up but the temperature went up to
27:38 to an even greater value decreasing the
27:41 Mad everybody on board all right so this
27:46 is one hell of a not only an evaluation
27:49 of
27:50 equipment you run this
27:53 thing you might know more than the guy
27:55 who actually sold you the blower about
27:58 his
28:00 blower and here is 100% efficient it's
28:05 an tic process it means no heat leaves
28:08 or or enters the system it's impossible
28:12 for a blower to or a turbo or any
28:14 compressor to be this efficient because
28:17 you're doing work to the air to compress
28:19 it and that puts heat into the air
28:20 there's no getting around it but here
28:24 the horsepower would be 1,70 and the
28:28 manifold air temperature would be
28:30 205 there's no intercooler here of
28:33 course so this is pi in the sky I just
28:36 thought I'd throw it in there just to
28:38 tell you we started at 60 degree air and
28:40 we're at 205 with a perfect
28:43 compressor so what changes air density
28:47 well if you increase the pressure air
28:49 density goes up if you increase the
28:51 temperature air density goes down if you
28:55 increase the humidity air density goes
28:57 down
28:58 not a lot humidity has a very narrow
29:01 window of
29:03 change so we' we've covered increasing
29:06 manifold air pressure now let's look at
29:08 reducing manifold air
29:14 temperature when we talk about
29:16 turbochargers and intercoolers I'm going
29:18 to use a
29:19 76% efficient compressor I'm going to
29:22 use on our airto air intercooler with
29:25 60° cooling air 82% of effective and on
29:29 ice water uh 90% effective and it'll be
29:35 33° water cooling the
29:39 core once again our naturally aspirated
29:42 setup is at 580 horsepower 100%
29:47 mad now we go to 20 pounds of boost no
29:51 intercooling we're at th3 might remember
29:54 that
29:55 number I'm going to give you some
29:57 examples examples of projects I've done
29:59 through the years real quick with no
30:03 intercooling uh first turbo Buick ever
30:06 the 76 Indie pace car
30:10 uh I was directly involved at Buick on
30:14 that uh that's their first turbo ever at
30:17 Buick they discontinued the V8 because
30:20 of the fuel Crunch and were stuck with a
30:22 V6 and the usack guys laughed him out of
30:25 the speedway told him go home and the
30:28 Roadster isn't going to run over you
30:30 you'll never make it to the pits so we
30:33 did this with
30:34 Buick uh we did the first uh we kind of
30:37 infected Europe a little bit too Volvo
30:39 hired us to do a turbo version of their
30:43 B21 red block this is mid
30:45 70s uh and this was the first O2 sensing
30:49 fuel injected turbo engine ever done on
30:52 the
30:53 planet that was foral they came out with
30:56 the their production turbo version of
30:59 this in
31:01 1980 it's hurry round Hondo this is a
31:04 hillborne
31:05 injected uh setup with with two blowers
31:08 that were being used at the speedway at
31:10 the time on the offen
31:12 housers uh 1800 horsepower methanol
31:15 engine and an 18t boat um we're a
31:20 national champion and all the guys with
31:22 blowers left the class and the next year
31:24 we had no class to run in apba
31:28 the compressor efficiency being the
31:31 major
31:34 difference uh we did a prototype V6
31:36 Marine engine no Turbo with
31:40 Chevy we built the U Grand National
31:44 concept with Buick the gray car in the
31:46 background and the guy looking at me uh
31:50 getting ready to tell me another lie is
31:52 Junior Johnson
31:54 is I'm telling you what a sweetheart he
31:58 is I just got some of his blueberry
32:04 shine really good stuff anyhow that was
32:08 a 38 at 454
32:11 horsepower uh we did water methanol
32:14 injected uh and the production Buicks
32:17 were all single turbo
32:20 uh the first diesel pickup turbo kit uh
32:24 this would be 1981 we had been working
32:26 with a 62 diesel as a Marine engine
32:28 starting in
32:29 1978 and finally they came out in the
32:31 pickup trucks in late 81 the 882e model
32:35 this is the first product of the diesel
32:37 aftermarket this is a seminal product of
32:39 the diesel
32:41 aftermarket uh tuner cars when there
32:44 were was no such a term uh anywhere in
32:47 the world we built T tuner cars we
32:49 didn't know what they were tuner cars
32:51 but they they are now uh we twin turbo
32:55 the small block Chevy this also used
32:57 water methanol
32:59 injection and
33:01 um had the first
33:04 car uh ever driven on the street by any
33:08 magazine over 200 miles an hour June of
33:11 84 the prior fastest car was 163 so we
33:16 got them by 41 miles an hour uh I sold
33:19 these cars throughout the 80s through a
33:21 company I form called American turbo car
33:23 corporation which we're bringing
33:25 back uh
33:28 we also did some turbocharging in NH Top
33:32 Fuel and a funny car and uh talked to
33:36 Wally parks and Graham light about this
33:39 stuff and um sat in Wally's office with
33:44 graham there and I told woy I wanted to
33:47 be the first top fuel car to go 300 and
33:50 he told me I it wasn't going to happen
33:54 because nobody knew Jack about
33:55 turbocharging in the middle of the 80s
33:58 so it never
34:01 happened but we remained friends and
34:05 uh gram light of course is still with us
34:08 I'll be seeing him next
34:11 month that was prom's last funny car we
34:15 tried to get chassis that
34:17 worked uh that was Gary Beck's top
34:20 qualifying car bought it from Larry
34:22 Miner 1986 winternational so I had a car
34:26 I knew worked and I did a flat crank uh
34:29 late model Hemi uh with a lot of
34:31 turbocharging gear and a lot of uh very
34:34 monster looking uh aerodynamic
34:38 drag for the engine uh the Cyclone was a
34:43 project I did with
34:45 GMC uh I originally intended it to be a
34:48 big block twin turbo in a short bed half
34:51 ton and in a meeting at GM Chevy took it
34:55 from us and did the ss454 454 SS which
34:59 was a 230 horsepower Pig uh and and and
35:05 went 87 miles hour top speed uh this is
35:09 the last on uh kind
35:12 of uh non-intercooled setup I just
35:16 wanted to point out the Ram-Air above
35:19 the uh back of the body there uh the
35:23 inlet area on that thing uh was quite a
35:26 a debate
35:28 uh because the car ran the best uh mile
35:31 I think was
35:33 432 and of course this car has been
35:35 retired for what nearly 15 years but for
35:38 two decades it was the fastest piston
35:41 engine wheel driven car on the planet
35:45 uh the inlet area on that thing looks
35:47 awfully small there's a 1271 in there
35:50 and uh we ran Chryslers of various sizes
35:54 for various
35:56 classes but we put an air density setup
36:00 on the feed to that GMC blower and found
36:05 we were we were up in the air density
36:08 about 8% above ambient so it was working
36:14 perfectly and this may be the last one
36:17 this is a little diesel we ran back in
36:20 the
36:22 0809 uh car number by the way is 777 our
36:26 record was 77 77 we put it in the NH
36:29 museum for a few
36:31 years pulled it out went to the
36:33 Nationals at Topeka won the Nationals we
36:36 turned to 777 in the final round I
36:39 should be a gambler that's all I got to
36:44 say oh and Paul dook Pikes Peak he ran
36:48 naturally aspirated uh Wally his dad is
36:51 a friend and Paul is a wicked Hill Climb
36:54 driver probably Reese Millan and Paul
36:58 are right up there
37:00 um this was a 400 500 horse small block
37:05 we did a 440 inch
37:08 sb2 and twin turbo non- alcohol we made,
37:11 142
37:13 horsepower completely changed the car so
37:16 badly that at the start the first year
37:19 he twisted the half shaft off on one
37:21 side of the car leaving hard from the
37:23 starting line and we we were the top
37:26 qualifier
37:27 but turbocharging heals up the
37:31 depression of naturally aspirated at
37:33 Pikes Peak uh we're also doing a top
37:36 dragster which will be running blown and
37:39 then ultimately super turbo this is
37:42 another currently uh non-intercooled
37:46 setup what I do on these non-intercooled
37:48 engines a lot of them is run nitrous as
37:51 a cooling agent and of course you know
37:54 it adds
37:55 horsepower done right
37:58 uh it's a pretty wicked combination with
38:01 turbocharging or supercharging diesel
38:03 gasoline whatever it's just modulating
38:06 the nitrous is uh kind of
38:09 refined uh that'll be the Dragster and
38:12 then the zumies will go away we're we're
38:14 just getting the 60 foot worked out the
38:16 zumies will go away and there'll be two
38:18 turbos blowing the
38:21 blower and here's our current version of
38:23 the non-intercooled V8 that we first did
38:26 50 years ago
38:31 thereabouts
38:34 so let's look at let's look
38:39 at different types of
38:41 intercooling
38:43 uh here we are at sea level j607
38:46 standard day we're turbocharged I think
38:50 what I'm going to do here is probably
38:51 change elevation again we're
38:54 1285 at sea level
38:57 with
38:58 intercooling here's a number of airto a
39:01 intercooled u projects that we've done
39:05 um diesel that we d drove to monaville
39:09 and then on the Power Tour and a bunch
39:11 of other stuff uh this is still an
39:15 2002 uh record which we still hold a two
39:19 I think the two-way is like
39:23 217 uh another intercooled diesel
39:33 uh air air intercool road
39:40 racer uh this is a super turbo 14 liter
39:44 I ran with Mike Ryan at Pikes
39:47 Peak
39:50 uh intercooler in the front one thing we
39:52 did there is we misted the face of the
39:54 intercooler with water because as you
39:57 get up an altitude the air density is so
40:00 low you don't have a lot of density to
40:03 reject the heat to so latent to
40:05 vaporization of the water really fix
40:09 that it's a a beautiful thing I just
40:11 took one of my water meth systems
40:14 and some nozzles and fog the inter the
40:17 intercooler with two stages you know
40:19 it's a screw blower uh blowing a very
40:22 large
40:23 turbocharger so it comes off the turns
40:26 real hard minimum smoke
40:28 um maximum fuel use in the
40:33 engine uh the thing
40:37 that leveraging
40:40 density um joint Special Operations
40:43 Command we've been doing military
40:45 engines for 40 years the first ones were
40:48 Marine engines for the
40:50 seals uh the guys were having issues
40:55 with the Humvees at 14,000 feet in
40:59 Afghanistan and that was a frag five
41:01 like the one I'm sitting on um they're
41:04 pretty heavy they weigh about 14,000
41:07 pounds with nothing in them and they had
41:09 about 52 horsepower at the ground at
41:12 that altitude so they got 100 190
41:16 flywheel about 113
41:19 114 at to the ground to sea level
41:21 Humvees are drastically underpowered
41:24 then they double the weight so these
41:27 guys were in the field of fire too long
41:29 they couldn't get to the fight fight
41:30 quick enough they sure as hell couldn't
41:32 get out the hell out of Dodge quick
41:34 enough that's why I went to Pikes Peak
41:37 to figure out density management of the
41:40 turbocharging at at
41:43 altitude
41:45 uh we also this is
41:49 something I'm just showing you guys this
41:51 because I'm feeling real P patriotic you
41:54 realize that it's about 8:30 in Pearl
41:58 Harbor right now on since the morning of
42:01 December
42:05 7th I've got this real serious
42:08 patriotism thing going
42:10 on uh after an eight-year battle with
42:14 all the defense companies and all the
42:15 diesel engine manufacturers in the
42:17 United States ashkash
42:19 truck with our Diesel power we we Supply
42:23 the engines for this J TV what I called
42:27 the jolt uh it replaces the humbe and
42:30 we'll be doing them through 20 240 which
42:33 is a hot roders dream come true it truly
42:36 is I wish I was
42:39 younger by the way Pearl Harbor is 75
42:43 years ago and I'm
42:45 75 it's kind of a weird vibe I've got
42:49 going on today uh at any rate here's
42:53 another one that's airto a intercooled
42:56 by the way this thing has 18 inches of
42:58 suspension travel it is a military
43:00 Trophy
43:01 Truck it goes through open country twice
43:06 as fast on the same course as the prior
43:10 vehicle that prior gold standard which
43:12 was also an ashkash vehicle
43:16 so quite a piece we beat every ma U
43:19 defense manufacturer took us eight years
43:22 quite a
43:24 contest air to ice water this is one one
43:27 of my favorites we first did this a very
43:29 long time ago uh you know it was it was
43:34 I'll give you some examples uh the
43:37 intercooler is the v-shaped guy with two
43:39 two elements on top of this my first
43:42 Marine uh twin turbo engine these things
43:46 are
43:46 incredibly effective U they cut the
43:51 temperature um water temperature versus
43:54 boost temperature by 92%
43:57 that's called
43:59 Effectiveness uh here's the first to my
44:03 knowledge use of a water coupled
44:05 intercooler in a in a road driven
44:08 vehicle uh basically uh in the Monza
44:11 this would be 75 or
44:13 76 uh I used Marine
44:17 intercooling and a second set of heat
44:19 exchangers which you will find on the
44:21 new 67 Ford uh and we did it on the U
44:26 production uh Cyclones as
44:29 well gisler
44:31 studabaker uh we took the road race
44:34 engine out of the Monza put it in the
44:36 stud of Baker uh and it ran 2117 at
44:39 Bonville which U made it the world's
44:42 fastest passenger car back in
44:44 79 our this is 850 horse marine engine
44:48 became the standard of the world these
44:50 were sold uh all over the world for 20
44:54 years then we started this series this
44:56 is ice water so you've got this ice
44:59 water tank which is a Coleman ice chest
45:01 with a rubber duck floating
45:03 inside and later there was two rubber
45:05 ducks and they had children in there uh
45:09 this this uh here you see the Marine
45:11 intercooler once again in front of the
45:13 plenum and we're blowing two uh hly
45:15 carburetors pressurizing two carburetors
45:18 way back then the fuel Mass re required
45:22 um wasn't available from any of the uh
45:26 fuel injection companies at the time
45:28 this would be
45:30 1980 we did a street driven version in a
45:33 Firebird uh shipped it to Johannesburg
45:37 South Africa customer's name was Peter
45:40 manelis he wanted the fastest car in
45:42 South
45:43 Africa um so at 6,200 feet of altitude
45:46 it ran
45:47 252 and he drove it on the street and
45:50 has driven it on the street ever since
45:52 tried to sell it back to me recently so
45:55 that's one of the American turbo carard
45:56 probably the fastest one we ever did um
46:01 vron uh when they first came out ran a
46:03 similar
46:04 number
46:06 um there you see the Coleman ice chest
46:08 over there on the the right side we
46:10 started really working with the
46:12 Firebirds ran a
46:15 67 uh and then we ran a best mile of
46:19 83 uh in 87 much more intercooling is
46:23 the point here we doubled up on the
46:25 intercooling
46:27 and uh went to Dominator carburetors and
46:31 got more manifold air density and uh
46:34 picked up some
46:35 speed same car I just painted it red
46:40 uh offshore Racing We Were Real success
46:44 successful around the world with
46:45 turbocharging until apba banned
46:47 turbocharging and offshore Racing for 25
46:50 years uh so it's back now you can now
46:53 turbo them again but they they got rid
46:55 of us
46:57 uh milit uh this is our uh I'm just
47:00 going to show you some late stuff we're
47:02 doing here uh this is
47:05 um be our 2017 Marine Duramax based on
47:08 the new
47:10 l5p uh we're also doing a super turbo
47:13 version of it for the Navy uh for the uh
47:16 twin
47:17 engine uh various other things we're
47:21 real happy to get rid of the Somali
47:23 pirates with Banks Power uh
47:28 and uh we're going to go after the
47:30 diesel land speed record which is
47:32 350 probably
47:34 2018 uh this car has been 382 with a 53
47:39 tooto iron motor uh turning 8,800 RPM
47:43 under a uh 1271 with a dose of nitro
47:46 it's been 382 so that's about 1,200
47:49 horsepower and uh we're way over that
47:52 with the the durmax engines it's it's
47:55 just got to sustain it the five miles
47:57 down and the five miles back is
47:59 all but it's a hot rod it's two wheel
48:01 drive Yankee iron nothing fancy the
48:05 English did it with two engines
48:06 four-wheel drive and $13 million worth
48:09 of
48:11 effort that's your number my number is
48:13 17 million but whatever they spent uh
48:17 I'm going to spend about you know 150
48:19 Grand and that's probably on the high
48:23 side one last
48:24 thing and and it this is uh an un an
48:29 answer
48:31 thing what if they had airto a
48:33 intercooling and a turbo engine and went
48:36 up Pikes
48:38 Peak so we started at 1285 horsepower at
48:41 sea
48:43 level and
48:45 uh go to Bonville we' still got
48:48 1199 still by the way still all 20
48:51 pounds of boost everybody getting the
48:53 drift on the boost gauge doesn't mean a
48:55 damn thing it's it's it's some nebulous
49:00 number that's out there all of these
49:02 examples are 20 pounds of boost the
49:04 power is all over the place
49:07 uh so then you go to the starting line
49:10 we're at
49:12 119 and at the top of the mountain we're
49:14 at 1,37 so we've got basically a 22%
49:19 loss in power uh at the top of the
49:22 mountain versus 40% loss in power uh for
49:26 the natural aspirated so there is some
49:29 altitude compensation inherent in
49:32 supercharging or turbocharging and going
49:34 to
49:37 altitude so basically the factors that
49:41 determine the power output of the engine
49:43 are the manifold air density and the
49:45 engine CFM pumped now if you want to up
49:48 the engine CFM pumped you can turn the
49:50 engine faster make it bigger or make the
49:53 heads work better all of which
49:57 will give you
49:59 more throughput from the
50:02 manifold the last one will give you more
50:04 throughput from the manifold to in
50:06 cylinder
50:10 density
50:12 so what I've got is this little thing
50:15 called the ey
50:16 Dash which allows you I've been showing
50:19 you screen on the damn thing we also do
50:21 a 2-in version that goes in a gauge Hole
50:23 uh it allows you to monitor evaluate and
50:27 refine the supercharger density gain the
50:29 supercharger size and overdrive the
50:32 turbocharger density gain the
50:34 turbocharger size uh any compressor mods
50:37 trick bullet wheels batm wheels or
50:39 whatever the heck screaming things these
50:41 kids do uh are they better or are they
50:45 worse or are they just
50:46 loud
50:49 uh ducting density loss which is a
50:52 biggie could be measured with this setup
50:55 intercooler Heat absor absorption rate
50:57 has to do with the mass of the
50:59 intercooler you know if you're doing a
51:01 drag race thing the inter intercooler
51:03 you got to heat the intercooler first uh
51:06 it's transferring he heat to the air or
51:08 to the water all the time but you got to
51:11 heat all that aluminum so when you come
51:13 out of the hole you know instantaneously
51:15 you got a lot of BTUs that decays down
51:19 as you heat the intercooler itself then
51:21 it normalizes and your heat rejection
51:24 flat lines you with me
51:27 if you got a lot of intercooler I don't
51:28 mean a thick air to air because you get
51:31 too thick they block air flow through
51:33 them and they're worse but you you can
51:35 find all of that just by watching
51:38 density gain across the intercooler at
51:41 the same speed and load dyo
51:44 wherever uh intercooler density gain of
51:47 course and intercooler coolant flow rate
51:49 a lot of guys are using water to Air
51:51 intercoolers and they're running a BGE
51:53 pump making about 12 gallons per minute
51:56 when they need 70 gallons per minute so
51:59 in that road race car I was running 70
52:01 80 gallons a minute with a belt driven
52:04 centrifical water pump
52:07 uh
52:10 anyhow here's the bad part of it
52:13 manifold air density minus ambient air
52:16 density gives you the Boost air density
52:18 this is what your charging system is
52:20 doing it's the only true evaluation of a
52:23 boosting
52:24 system ambient air density plus boost
52:27 air density equals manifold air density
52:30 and that is the key indicator to a power
52:33 the power
52:34 output it's not as good as a dynamometer
52:37 of course but when you're out racing the
52:40 dynamometer isn't there with you and
52:43 it's you can compare manifold air
52:45 density or boost air density gain with
52:47 any other guy in any other engine shop
52:51 uh or any guy you're racing anywhere on
52:53 the planet at any altitude it is the
52:55 universal comparative
52:57 term for
52:59 engine power
53:03 output it's kind of like a batting
53:05 average the way I look at it if you're
53:07 under under a 100 like going up Pikes
53:09 Peak naturally aspirated you are truly a
53:11 victim of Mother
53:13 Nature 100 to 200 especially you get up
53:16 around 200 on a street machine you're
53:18 getting with the
53:20 program 200 to 300 people are starting
53:23 to avoid
53:24 you no I'm not in
53:27 you 300 to 500 you're the master of the
53:32 universe the boost
53:35 gauge is dead to
53:40 me all right guys thank you very much
53:43 it's been a pleasure thank
53:45 you thank
53:48 you hey great presentation Gail um what
53:51 about on the exhaust side on a turbo
53:54 because now all our customers are
53:55 spending all this time on the on the
53:57 compressor side but they're avoiding the
54:00 turbine side to see how much back
54:03 pressure they're running is there
54:04 anything like what you're doing with
54:06 your manifold gauge that you can put on
54:08 the exhaust side yeah in fact I'm just
54:12 uh finishing I'm trying to do it with a
54:14 single
54:14 sensor that'll take exhaust Drive
54:17 pressure and temperature at the same
54:20 time okay uh I kind of look at it this
54:22 way you want to minimize that uh turbine
54:27 development uh turbocharger response is
54:30 a function of turbine size and total
54:32 flow
54:33 capacity a lot of guys drag racing will
54:35 run a little tiny
54:37 turbine the theory is is it gets a
54:39 Turbocharger going quicker uh a good way
54:43 to monitor whether that's correct or not
54:47 is be logging manifold air density right
54:50 and see how quickly it rises
54:54 uh this whole thing I I didn't mention
54:57 that my little meter my little gauge and
55:01 that little 5 in thing has a SD card
55:04 slot for logging so you're recording it
55:06 yes yeah so you just pop it in there and
55:08 get up whatever you want to get the the
55:12 whole deal with Drive pressure is you
55:15 soon pay the piper if if the turbine is
55:17 small you older guys will recognize this
55:20 I call it the May West
55:23 turbocharger uh kind of small on the
55:25 bottom and big on the top
55:27 uh the the uh who's a better more modern
55:31 example of that I got to I got to up my
55:34 game a little so the the whole deal is
55:37 you soon turn into boost
55:42 pressure dropping literally and turban
55:45 Inlet pressure doing
55:47 this I don't want to ever hit that
55:49 crossover point if I can avoid it I
55:52 always like to have the turban Inlet
55:53 pressure lower than the boost pressure
55:55 we're just talking pressure comparison
55:57 here uh
55:59 so nuancing the turbocharger and
56:02 nuancing the intercooler and how it
56:04 matches to the situation this tool is so
56:07 damn good at that even getting into
56:10 Billy country and and looking at the
56:13 valve timing no absolutely there's so
56:15 much that can be done with this and you
56:18 know frankly if you had a Roots uh a
56:20 belt driven supercharger at wide open
56:23 throttle and you perfect the cam so the
56:27 head works better the manif the manifold
56:30 pressure will drop literally oh
56:33 absolutely yeah thank you so much
56:35 hopefully the temperature will drop
56:36 enough that your thing that the boost
56:38 gauge if you were going to use one of
56:39 those before we dead um would drop
56:42 actually more initial temperature you
56:45 know we've got this octane limit that
56:47 initial temperature has a big bearing
56:49 how on how much you could could drive
56:52 the manifold density up I mean if we
56:54 bring that temp down well I'm talking
56:56 about detonation threshold right you
56:58 know you run on C or whatever it is 116
57:01 whatever the you the racers but I'm talk
57:05 I do a lot of Street stuff and you
57:07 always have that octane limit
57:10 so getting that initial temperature down
57:13 while keeping the density up is a big
57:15 deal processing it through with proper
57:17 valve timing and not press processing it
57:20 all the way into the exhaust manifold
57:23 you don't want to put shortcut right
57:25 yeah you don't want to put air in the
57:26 exhaust manifold thank you so much I
57:28 really do
57:31 all hi you mentioned that you don't want
57:34 to go over on the intercooler thickness
57:36 Beyond its ability to flow through it
57:38 because then it becomes
57:39 counterproductive uh have you done any
57:41 studies or found a a core thickness that
57:45 Beyond it which is uh unreasonable to
57:48 have five six seven inches and and does
57:51 it depend on the application yeah if
57:52 it's a low velocity like a truck uh you
57:55 know I had a guy from Texas call me the
57:57 other day how Thick's your intercool
57:59 from my truck I said uh three and a
58:01 quarter something like that I don't know
58:03 not thick enough I want 4 Ines or
58:07 better most 4in core material regardless
58:10 of the fin count is too restrictive so
58:13 your radiator behind
58:16 it C can't reject as much heat the
58:20 engine gets to overtemp before you get
58:23 to the power gain literally the engine
58:26 will pull out fuel to save itself on
58:29 modern ones where they have EGT being
58:31 measured constantly it'll derate in
58:35 other words the intercooler is
58:37 absolutely only good for
58:39 conversation it sure as hell isn't good
58:41 for density or power so how thick it
58:44 depends on the but at about three and a
58:46 half inches uh if you drop the fin
58:50 density to where the AR will go through
58:53 properly and do the rest of the cooling
58:55 pack it's not rejecting enough heat
58:57 anymore in other words you don't have
58:58 enough thin surface area anymore it's
59:01 kind of a balancing
59:03 act makes sense thank you all
59:08 right yes sir you ever looked at the
59:11 compressed air supercharging system the
59:14 the which compressed air supercharging
59:16 system compressed air
59:18 supercharging uh did a project years ago
59:21 with Mickey Thompson right but somebody
59:24 has finally figured out how to valve it
59:26 yeah the issue the issue for drag well
59:29 there was two different things there uh
59:31 this was kind of a Flopper Mustang and
59:35 um the valving was part of it and the
59:38 total
59:39 capacity in other words if you really
59:41 want to have enough air to make the pass
59:44 enough P enough pounds of air right uh
59:47 of course we weren't running as quick as
59:48 we do now way back then
59:51 but the valving was first an issue and
59:53 then the valving issue was resolved and
59:55 then the tank capacity became an issue
59:57 right so well then he tried to oxygen
01:00:01 cylinders
01:00:03 yeah scuba tanks now hold three times as
01:00:06 much air as what you guys said yeah I
01:00:08 you know I how many pounds of air are in
01:00:10 the tank it's you know what I'm saying
01:00:13 so
01:00:15 uh if you've got enough air mass in the
01:00:17 tank you could easily do it you play a
01:00:20 weight penalty but there's no blower or
01:00:22 anything maybe it kind of levels out
01:00:25 yeah plus the air the air temperature
01:00:28 coming out of the scuba tank is way
01:00:31 below
01:00:33 zero and you know if you go to Bonville
01:00:36 with a diesel liner they're just going
01:00:37 to ship that thing back over from
01:00:39 England and put it in high gear and take
01:00:40 it away from
01:00:42 it I hope
01:00:44 so nothing you know it's like it's like
01:00:48 our little cummin powered pickup truck
01:00:51 I'm still waiting for somebody you know
01:00:53 I guys go why don't you go back and go
01:00:56 go faster and it's why go race
01:00:59 yourself I'm
01:01:00 still I'm still waiting for you to go to
01:01:03 Bonville with your diesel Streamliner
01:01:04 because you told me I was on a crew it's
01:01:07 you are going to
01:01:09 crew you're screwed now I got
01:01:14 [Laughter]
01:01:17 witnesses I'm I'm shooting for 2018 on
01:01:20 that uh do the dragster first anyone
01:01:23 else I got a lot of answers some of them
01:01:26 are correct any other
01:01:29 questions anybody else got a project
01:01:31 going
01:01:33 anything oh here comes a gentleman by
01:01:36 the way uh Billy godbold uh if you're
01:01:41 turbocharging anything talk to Billy
01:01:43 godol at Comp
01:01:46 Cams picking up on the uh compressed air
01:01:50 injection uh being a scuba diver and
01:01:53 having scuba tanks and uh uh messing
01:01:57 around with
01:01:59 superchargers uh I've always wanted to
01:02:02 try uh shooting high velocity air out of
01:02:07 the scuba tank through the Venturi and
01:02:10 getting the coanda effect of drawing in
01:02:13 a lot more air too plus the super
01:02:17 cooling effect of the uh expansion the
01:02:20 air coming out of the scuba tank and I
01:02:22 think for quarter mile racing it's got
01:02:25 uh
01:02:26 uh great potential but I've never had
01:02:28 the time to really do it you know what
01:02:32 it' be cool talking to your point is to
01:02:35 put an air receiver on a turbocharged
01:02:38 car and uh use that to launch in other
01:02:44 words kick the turbo in the ass with
01:02:46 some compressed air right through the
01:02:48 compressor yeah
01:02:51 yeah we we'll have to try that I mean
01:02:54 there's an inventive you know you know
01:02:56 if if we were all Shipwrecked on a
01:02:58 desert
01:02:59 island this is a comment on Racers and
01:03:02 you come back a year
01:03:04 later we'd have a high-rise
01:03:07 Hotel we'd have a racetrack you know
01:03:10 what I mean it would come come out of we
01:03:13 make them from coconuts somehow it would
01:03:17 happen that's the beauty of doing what
01:03:19 we do it it's all about invention isn't
01:03:22 it anyway thanks for a great
01:03:24 presentation and a lot of very
01:03:26 thought-provoking stuff too I hope so
01:03:29 thank
01:03:30 you yes sir hi Gail great presentation
01:03:34 by the way very very cool stuff my
01:03:36 question is well I guess my statement is
01:03:40 uh oftentimes I like to listen to the
01:03:41 language that people use and a few
01:03:43 minutes ago when Billy asked a question
01:03:45 about the exhaust you used a word that's
01:03:48 different than everybody else most
01:03:49 people talk about back pressure you
01:03:51 called it drive pressure and so we spend
01:03:54 a lot of time my place discussing the
01:03:57 difference between the two and uh
01:03:59 obviously we we have to have some amount
01:04:01 of pressure to drive the turbine but we
01:04:03 have too much left over we call that
01:04:05 back pressure so I just thought maybe
01:04:06 I'd bait you a little bit and give you
01:04:08 the opportunity to expound so that the
01:04:10 people that are turbocharging could well
01:04:11 expound this way uh belt
01:04:15 driven uh gear
01:04:18 driven those are all driven by increased
01:04:21 firing
01:04:23 pressure uh what am I saying here
01:04:27 say you've got an octane limit or a
01:04:28 structural limit for the
01:04:31 engine you get to a certain firing
01:04:33 pressure and you're starting to break
01:04:37 parts now you add
01:04:41 more to do your
01:04:43 blower why do that why not add it on the
01:04:47 exhaust
01:04:48 stroke so now all your firing pressure
01:04:52 is available to make power at a given
01:04:55 octane
01:04:56 to me a belt driven device hamstrings
01:05:00 you the only reason to use
01:05:03 one like the super turbo I was showing
01:05:05 is to kick it in the ass get it going
01:05:08 nice big
01:05:10 turbochargers great for mid-range and
01:05:12 top
01:05:13 end not a lot of Drive pressure required
01:05:16 for them be because you don't have that
01:05:18 tight turbine to get it to respond from
01:05:21 downstairs it's more like the turb the
01:05:24 turbocharger match on the old coffee
01:05:25 Indie Cars uh or that Firebird at
01:05:28 Bonville I'm running like 26 pounds of
01:05:31 Drive pressure and 38 pounds of boost
01:05:33 pressure so that type of thing uh I'm a
01:05:37 real advocate of not using a belt driven
01:05:40 device at all uh except as an augmenter
01:05:44 and now we've got an electric driven
01:05:46 device uh we first used to push this
01:05:50 Streamliner uh 15 18 years ago uh it's
01:05:53 becoming production at Borg Warner now
01:05:56 uh so we'll
01:05:58 have 48 volt electric systems coming in
01:06:01 our future Vehicles real soon uh and I
01:06:06 can't wait because that the device we're
01:06:09 working on requires 48
01:06:11 volts it pulls about I don't know 6 KW
01:06:15 of energy real quick that's a lot of
01:06:18 amps at 12 volts uh so more than the
01:06:22 starter about twice three times the
01:06:23 starter average
01:06:26 so there's a lot coming uh I think I did
01:06:31 I answer the question though close what
01:06:34 I was
01:06:36 really because I tend to drift off and
01:06:41 just clearly yeah so the question that I
01:06:45 was really hoping to Define is when if
01:06:48 we were to put your your uh gauge on the
01:06:51 other side of the engine and I could
01:06:53 look at the relative difference the
01:06:55 pressure or manifold air density on one
01:06:58 side versus The Other Side uh that has a
01:07:00 direct effect on the engine's
01:07:01 performance so what I was getting at is
01:07:04 we encounter a lot of folks that that
01:07:06 maybe don't quite see the difference
01:07:09 between having that huge manifold
01:07:11 density but as you pointed out if I try
01:07:13 to get there with a little tiny turbine
01:07:15 it doesn't necessarily help me so I
01:07:17 wanted you to expand on when does enough
01:07:20 pressure in the exhaust to drive the
01:07:21 turbine become offset by an excessive
01:07:24 amount that I can no longer get rid
01:07:27 of how do you know when you're there if
01:07:31 it's a drag race car it's going to be a
01:07:32 lapse time um we did a deal with the
01:07:35 guys at Garrett about 10 12 years ago
01:07:38 using the same compressor and two
01:07:40 different turbine sizes one correct one
01:07:43 and one that was the May
01:07:45 West and everybody run that T3 D dber T4
01:07:50 compressor thing back years ago well
01:07:54 going T4 t for we had better better ETS
01:07:58 the thing literally wasn't that lazy
01:08:01 getting on the turbocharger so and once
01:08:05 on everything else was way better so you
01:08:09 might suffer a little bit in the 60 foot
01:08:11 but oh my god did you make it up you
01:08:14 know at the eighth and the quarter
01:08:17 so I you know instrumentation and data
01:08:20 logging empirically doing it is probably
01:08:22 the quickest way for anybody uh
01:08:27 you that was a good answer you've had a
01:08:29 great career and we're lucky to benefit
01:08:30 from your experience so great
01:08:31 presentation we appreciate it thank
01:08:34 you yes
01:08:35 sir first I'd like to thank you for
01:08:37 coming and speaking I thought it was a
01:08:38 great presentation this would be the
01:08:39 last question so make it a good one two
01:08:42 things one is when you do hit Bonville
01:08:43 in 2018 if you need some oil
01:08:44 recommendations please come talk me I'd
01:08:46 love to help out with that just a little
01:08:48 plug uh secondly is I think you just
01:08:51 kind of hit on this in your first answer
01:08:53 the last question so some of the higher
01:08:54 end racing team team I deal with they're
01:08:56 actually running an electric assisted
01:08:58 turbocharger to overcome the lag is that
01:09:00 what you were just talking about as far
01:09:01 as so we're going to see that in the
01:09:03 near future verus they're experimenting
01:09:06 they're still like the Formula 1 teams
01:09:07 WC teams they're running it now I was
01:09:10 kind of curious if you're dealing with
01:09:11 anything like that how soon it would be
01:09:12 till we would be able to have something
01:09:14 like that yeah there's a little echo on
01:09:16 this speaker bit uh am I dealing with
01:09:19 electric driven supercharging correct
01:09:22 yes yeah uh you know when when I was
01:09:26 talking about uh going to Buick and
01:09:30 doing that uh pace car uh guy named Walt
01:09:33 wear who was president at Gad a research
01:09:36 back in those
01:09:38 decades good friend of mine we teamed
01:09:41 together he he sent the stuff and then
01:09:45 called me and said you're going to Buick
01:09:47 with me because they can't figure it out
01:09:52 so after leaving Garrett uh he worked
01:09:56 for Roger Pensky Pensky had bought or
01:09:59 was given Detroit Diesel and some money
01:10:01 to take it by GM and Walt went there and
01:10:05 help helped turn around the company uh
01:10:08 and then he uh they sold it to diimler
01:10:11 uh and Walt started a was the president
01:10:15 of a company that built electrically
01:10:17 driven centrifugal superchargers this is
01:10:20 18 20 years
01:10:22 ago one of which we put in a Dodge
01:10:24 cumins push truck which was lazy as hell
01:10:27 out of the hole and a douly one ton and
01:10:31 suddenly we had the next year wheel spin
01:10:34 you know and we're loading toolboxes in
01:10:36 the damn thing to try to settle it down
01:10:37 to push that
01:10:39 Streamliner by the way I am an advocate
01:10:41 of four-wheel drive badass push truck uh
01:10:45 that makes it makes the five miles even
01:10:47 longer if you follow me you're under
01:10:50 power rather than on the push truck for
01:10:52 for more time so you go faster
01:10:56 uh it's a very successful thing uh he
01:11:00 had them running on buses in England he
01:11:02 had them running on semis here very good
01:11:05 deal
01:11:07 unfortunately the company wasn't
01:11:09 financially sound and folded up so now
01:11:12 we have not only Borg Warner but a
01:11:14 number of other valo I think is another
01:11:17 company out of France that are doing
01:11:19 these electric superchargers again and I
01:11:23 think BMW somebody has a production
01:11:26 application coming like next year uh to
01:11:30 me
01:11:31 it's it's so cool I can't wait because
01:11:35 it allows me to really sweeten up the
01:11:37 turbo match and uh not have to worry
01:11:40 about the out of the whole thing as much
01:11:43 so it's
01:11:44 coming I wish they'd just get it done uh
01:11:48 we're doing 48 volt first then we're
01:11:50 going to do some 12 volts after
01:11:54 so for all the older cars all the older
01:11:58 applications uh
01:12:01 so just one last thing guys
01:12:05 uh I I used to teach a lot and the last
01:12:08 time I taught major was a 40-hour
01:12:12 seminar at General Motors Institute on
01:12:14 engine design and a turbo application
01:12:16 June of
01:12:18 1980 and open to graduate engineers
01:12:22 and all companies which which was awes
01:12:25 for GMI but they let me do
01:12:27 it and I was preaching a 2 L highly
01:12:30 turbocharged engine because we're coming
01:12:33 off the fuel crunch in fact in 79 we
01:12:35 kind of had another little
01:12:37 Rumble and a couple of recessions there
01:12:39 late 7980 and into 81 and
01:12:44 uh so I'm preaching to these
01:12:47 guys why don't we do like a lader and a
01:12:49 half 2 L engine that's little get you
01:12:53 fuel economy then you hit the loud pedal
01:12:57 and suddenly it's bigger and gives you
01:12:59 the performance you're looking for and I
01:13:01 about got laughed out of that place
01:13:03 because cast iron so damn cheap cubic
01:13:05 inches was so damn cheap and turbos cost
01:13:07 as much as their engines so it didn't
01:13:11 happen and about eight years ago one of
01:13:14 the students a guy named Tom VA who
01:13:17 became the director of forc induction at
01:13:19 Ford Motor Company sent me a dyo
01:13:22 sheet twin turbo V6
01:13:26 turns out that was the
01:13:27 EcoBoost and uh of course he raw hided
01:13:31 me because it was about 100 horsepower
01:13:33 more than we did with the production
01:13:35 engine at Buick with a
01:13:38 38 but think how it is to go 30 what is
01:13:43 it 30 some years and finally see your
01:13:46 dream come
01:13:48 true so what I do I went out and bought
01:13:51 an EcoBoost Mustang with a 2.3 for
01:13:55 Banger in it and I'm going a turbo the
01:13:58 living out of that
01:14:02 thing thank you all thank you very much
01:14:06 thank you